Photo Credit: www.CieloDrive.com
October 26, 2014
Chatsworth Charlie - TLB Blogger
Brian Davis - TLB Radio
One of the mainstay questions of TLB is "did Charlie Manson go back to Cielo Drive after the murders ?"
While I am on the fence about a lot in regards to TLB, one issue I have been convinced 100% is that Charles Manson did go back to Cielo Drive, the scene of the Tate murders on August 9, 1969.

Not counting former Manson girl Stephanie Schram's comments or the Emmons/Manson book, "Manson In His Own Words", the mysterious eyeglasses and Sharon's blood on the front porch are a couple examples why I think Manson went to Cielo that night after the murders.   WARNING: Graphic Image Ahead

Now, add another piece of circumstancial evidence to that pile because TLB Radio contributor and hawk-eye Chatsworth Charlie sent the following picture of Jay Sebring along with the observation
of what appears to me to be a thong tying Sebring's hands together.

I don't know if anyone has ever pointed that out somewhere before but I had never noticed it and I have seen that picture over a hundred times probably. I admit the graphic nature of the picture makes it hard look at more than a glance so I don't think I would ever have noticed it on my own regardless of how many times I see it.

To be fair, some argue it is simply rigor mortis that has set in. And it very well could be just that.

But for me, it appears to be a thong tying Sebring's hands.

It is important because that thong looks to me like the same type thong that was used to tie Leno LaBianca's hands together. And Manson was at the LaBianca's.

In fact, according to Tex Watson, it was Manson's thong that Tex used to tie LaBianca's hands.

"Telling the heavyset man to roll over onto his stomach, Charlie pulled off a leather thong that had been looped around his neck and had me tie LaBianca's hands with it.  I must have cinched him up pretty firmly, because he immediately protested that it was too tight, especially when we turned him onto his back again with the weight of his body pressing down on his wrists." (Pg.61 - Will You Die For Me ?)
So, how does this possibly help prove Manson was at Cielo ?

Chatsworth Charlie and I would submit that since Manson was there at LaBianca and handed the thong to Tex which was used to tie Mr. LaBianca then it's possible, if not likely, Manson was at
Cielo to hand Watson another thong to tie Sebring's hands.

We don't think Watson brought his own thong.

Chatsworth Charlie feels it's even possible that Manson was actually there before or during the murdering.

I'm on the fence on that but I am convinced whether or not Manson was at Cielo with Tex and the girls prior or during the murders or if Manson returned later, someone tied Sebring's hands with the same type of thong used to tie the LaBianca's.

It is more than likely Manson or Tex tied Sebring's hands. And again, if it were Tex then Manson likely gave him the thong just as Manson did the next night at LaBianca's.

Regardless, we more than ever think Manson at least went back to the Cielo scene after the murders. Do you ?


Christine said...

Undecided if he did, however, if you look at the other Jay crime scene pics, his hands are in the same position and there is no signs of his hands tied or a thong.

Thanks, keep up the good work.

Anonymous said...

Christine, where can these photos be seen?
The only other crime scene ones I found are when he is lying on his side with his hands together, towel over his head.

Anonymous said...

For example like here:


Looks to me like they are still connected at the wrist but impossible to see if they are tied or not.

Anonymous said...

I've looked at this photo often but was only trying to determine if Susan really made an "all-star" throw of the towel which wrapped itself around Jay's head. She didn't of course.

So someone unsaid did it. Manson is my bet on his trip up to verify what Tex told him.

Jay's hands do indeed seem to be tied. I've never seen this mentioned in the police reports.

Penny Watkins said...

I don't think he did.

Christine said...

I'm all for he didn't go back and I don't think Jay's hands were tied...if they were, wouldn't it be mentioned and therefore may have linked the murders earlier? I think so. I don't buy the poor Charlie was framed and LAPD withheld info to get him. All I know is they got the right people in jail.

Anonymous said...

"All I know is they got the right people in jail".

That's about all that is right about TLB.

Tillman said...

Christine, you think because it's not in the police report it's not true?

So Sharon's baby isn't mentioned in the initial autopsy which by law, should've been..but we all know she was pregnant.

There are so many police errors in this case that you can't 100% trust the police reports.

Anonymous said...

Right Tillman, look how long the gun sat there after it was turned in and they didn't even know about it!

Gary Stewart said...

I think Tex and Charlie went back.
Susan says they turned off all the lights and Tex says he turned the hall light off with his elbow.
First cops on the scene say a lamp on the desk was on and the hall light that Tex switched off was also on.

Who turned them back on??

Kev said...

Manson was at Crowe, hinman, labiancas, Shea for sure - I believe wherever there was a situation which could either bring trouble or money to the 'family' Charlie was there to try sort it out, in his own way.

Kev said...

I believe he went back to cielo - lots of red herrings in this case but I don't think this is one of them. He went back to clean up fingerprints and arrange/ disturb the crime scene to mislead police.

Bill Davies Jr said...

Brian I have nothing to say about this I think you nailed it 100% no questions no argument this is accurate as possible.

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

A thong in the late sixties was not butt floss (Google told me). It was a leather string that was used to tie on their bare feet which gave the appearance of wearing shoes without actually wearing shoes (barefoot sandals). That said, I doubt that Charlie was the only one in the group that had these on him. They came in handy when entering establishments that prohibited bare feet. Besides why tie Jay's hands after he was already dead?

Anonymous said...

Same reason a towel was put over Jay's head AFTER he was dead (or WAS he?)
Look at the placement of that towel, that did not land that way by tossing it, between the head and rope, impossible)
Who says he was dead when the hands were tied (if in fact they were?)
Did other people wear those thongs on their feet back in the day besides Sharon?
I didn't know that was something others did and only learned of it from Debra describing how Sharon would do so.

Anonymous said...

Did anyone ever say who cut Abigail Folger's face? Was it Krenwinkle and what kind of weapon did that? Because I was under the impression that the girls had buck knives and that cut doesn't look like it was done with a buck knife, it looks to me like it could have been done with the same weapon that cut Gary Hindman.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the two Orientals with swords?

tony mcgrath said...

No way would he risk getting caught among all that carnage , and he was basically a coward who didn't hang around when things got hairy ,i also believe he gave the orders to kill that night but never expected them to be carried out and was shocked and scared when the truth dawned on him about the full horror of the crime that Watson and co delivered at Cielo Drive

George Vreeland Hill said...

No way did Manson go to Cielo Drive after the murders.
During the killings, there were gunshots, screams, yelling and terror.
People in the area later said they heard these things.
If I'm Manson and was thinking about going to the crime scene, I would be wondering if the police were there.
Cielo is a long narrow road that I am familiar with and so was Manson.
Imagine driving up there and running into police.
Since Manson did not belong there, what excuse would he have for being there at say, three o'clock in the morning.
BINGO ... caught!
Besides, Manson avoided any contact with bloody scenes.
Remember that he tied up Leno and Rosemary LaBianca, but left so others could do the dirty work.
This was his pattern.
That would also be his excuse later on that he murdered no one.
So no way does he tie himself to a murder after the fact.
Also, ask yourself this ...
Would you?

George Vreeland Hill

Joe M said...

I agree with some of the other comments here....Charlie didn't go back to the scene because he would have been afraid to. Also, if he did go back it's highly likely that Leslie and/or Patricia would have been aware of it and undoubtedly would have made mention of it, but they never have.

Anonymous said...

My guess IF Manson went back then him and Tex went to search for the drugs or money that were, in Tex's mind, owed to Tex.

Dave1971 said...

During her interview with Caruso and Caballero at Carusos office Atkins was told by Caruso that police were convinced that Charlie was on the scene at Cielo, her answer was "im sure he wasnt", now whether that was just a ploy by Caruso to get her to either confirm or deny he was there is anyones guess but i dont ever remember any claims by police that they thought Manson was on the scene

Dave1971 said...

My theory is that Tex got the stash that hom and Linda came there to get, the stash that Rostau delivered earlier in the evening, ive always believed that was Lindas reason for high tailing it to New Mexico after the murders, to unload the drugs they got there

Dave1971 said...

Remember, the mexican kid who heard arguing at Cielo at around 4am said the argument was intense and sounded to him like the men had southern accents, there were 3 men at the ranch with southern accents, Tex, Charlie and Bruce Davis, Charlie and Bruces was more of a Kentucky/East Tennessee appalachian type accent and Watsons was pure Texas

Dave1971 said...

Theres quite a few unanswered questions, Sharon and Jays blood on the front porch, Sharons 7-8 stab wounds in the back when everyone there said she was only stabbed in the chest, Abigails face slash, Voyteks being found with his pants pulled down partially, no one INITIALLY reporting even checking the guesthouse, blood found in the garage next to Sharons rented Camaro that was never collected and typed, blood on the gate button when everyone claimed they climbed the embankment to get back over the gate, Susan reporting seeing a dog out one of the windows during the murders when supposedly they were locked up with Garretson, Frykowskis gunshot wounds when nobody remembered shooting him, and many other oddities im probably forgetting

Dave1971 said...

None of the killers initially reported having or leaving the glasses there either

Anonymous said...

Sharon always wore thosekind of sandals :(

Anonymous said...

Me too,Manson loved kids,I have wondered,if he would have spared Sharon,but take her with and keep the baby ?

Anonymous said...

I agreee

Anonymous said...

I totally agreed with you George Vreeland hill!!!

Sara Murphy said...

Hi- a lot off errors on this thread, and to my knowledge there are a few things in your comment I have read about. According to Helter Skelter and many other sources, Sharon was certainly also stabbed in the back. She had 3 to the heart, one in her side, and some defensive wounds on her arm, the rest in her back. That hasn’t been in question, only if one or two knives were used, or one or two killers. Sharon’s face was also slashed, as described by Tex Watson in his book. He did it to torture, and no doubt did the same to Abigail Folger. The blood in the garage was believed to be left by one of the killers checking out the Camaro, and it was a definite fact that they opened the gate to leave. Also in Helter Skelter. Tex left a print opening it, and one of the first police responders mistakenly obliterated it by pushing it to close the gate behind them during the initial investigation, rendering it useless for evidence. I also recall always knowing Frykowski was shot also, it is in the books and on autopsy. I’m not sure about his pants, but the photos on the lawn don’t look like they are pulled down, they are low on his hips in late 60s fashion. Such a tragedy and so many details. Cheers

Sara Murphy said...

After much research, I don’t believe Charlie went there that night or that Jay’s hands are bound. He appears to have died in a defensive posture after being kicked in the face, stabbed and shot. Sharon heartbreakingly died clutching the wounds to her heart protectively. Charlie only went to Hinman because they were failing to get any money out of him. He went to the LaBiancas because they had gone alone and caused so much fear and chaos. He tied them up and split. His whole “innocent me” routine hinges on the fact he literally had no blood on his hands and wasn’t present during or after any killing. Finally, many sources cite confusion on the blood typing on the front porch. It seems the most likely that cross contamination occurred in places, or flat mistakes in the early stages of more accurate blood typing. My opinions. Cheers!

Sara Murphy said...

Exactly and thank you.


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